- Well, good morning everyone and thanks for taking some time to meet with us today. And we decided, based on the events that have taken place in our city and really around the country, that we wanted to set aside what we normally do, which is study through a book we've been going through Philippians, and deal with the critical cultural issue that we're facing today. And it's a big one, and I've invited some wonderful guests to be with us today and talk about what has happened over this past week. I mean we're not only in the midst of COVID-19, but now we've got another situation that is in many ways wrecking people's lives, destroying cities, and I think is really instigated by the enemy state and quite frankly, in everything that we're doing and saying. So we wanna come into this conversation today and enter into a zone where we begin to talk about some real cultural issues with my friends, but talk about the issue of hope, and the hope that the gospel brings. And I have a collection of friends, individuals that we have partnered with over the years at Rockpoint. But individuals that we are gonna continue to develop a relationship with, especially in light of what has happened. And so I'm gonna kind of go around, introduce you to them, and then we're gonna open up and talk about what has happened. And so thanks for your patience. Thanks for allowing us to come into your homes to talk about a real life cultural issue, but to bring the gospel of hope into this issue, 'cause that's the solution that we need today. To my right is Chris Monson, and I've known Chris over the years. He's the senior pastor at East Immanuel, and Chris is also a chaplain with the St Paul Police Department. - Correct. - And so Chris, it's great to have you with us and thanks for taking the time. How long have you been at East Immanuel, and how long have you been a chaplain with the police department? - Been at East Immanuel, will be 13 years next week. And it's about eight years with the police department. - Okay. So Chris really brings a unique perspective, and that's you, you know what's going on in the city of St Paul, but you also understand what is happening with those individuals that are putting their lives on the line. And the vast majority of them would totally disagree with what has just taken place. So that's gonna be an awesome opportunity. And Sammy, Sammy Watkins is with us. Sammy has a Sox uniform on, but yeah, that's pretty awesome 'cause I'm from Chicago, everybody knows that. But Sammy is a chaplain at the Union Gospel Mission. And Sammy and Chris, and I'll introduce our next guest, Terrell, in just a minute, but all three of them have been here at Rockpoint. We've talked with you guys, and interviewed, and Sammy, how long have you been at Union Gospel Mission? - I've been around Union Gospel Mission for about 19 years. So I served 10 years as a full time volunteer, and the last eight years as a full time chaplain. - Okay. And Sammy brings a unique perspective, both from the inner city, cities, I should say twin cities, but specifically with St Paul, and kind of the area that you're working with. And Terrell, Terrell, it's great to have you with us. Terrell Walter, he's a senior pastor at a church, right in Minneapolis. He's been engaged working with East Immanuel over the years. And again, we've had all these guys up on our stage interviewing 'em, but for those that are not familiar with your story, we wanna keep praying for this guy because he's got cancer. You saw him up in front when we shared his story a few months ago, but God's working in his heart, and he's on a journey, and God's grace is sufficient. But he remarkably decided to come here today because of the importance of what we're gonna talk about. So Terrell though, real quick, just so people can get to know you just a little bit, how long have you been serving as a pastor in Minneapolis? - I've been a lead pastor in Minneapolis for 11 years at Beacon of Hope Church. - Okay. And they all have incredible stories. We don't have time to get into all that today. They bring a unique perspective. They have a life before Christ, and a life after Christ, and Jesus Christ is changing them and transforming them. - Daily. - Absolutely. All of us. - Yes. - Right? - Amen. - And so what I wanna say right up front, which is really the starting point of our conversation, but it's an opportunity for all of us to acknowledge together, regardless of skin color. And that is, what happened to George Floyd was a tragic, evil, horrific act of injustice. And that is something that, it doesn't matter who you are, we are coming together and saying, that's a presupposition before we even get into the deeper conversations of what now needs to happen. That should've never taken place. And what happened surrounding that event allows us, as horrific as it is, to bring the light of the good news of Jesus Christ into a very, very dark, dark, death-like experience. I mean, if anything, it's a metaphor, a metaphor that death came to the Lord Jesus Christ. But resurrection hope came out of that tomb. And I think we have a chance, together in partnership, to offer that same hope to people in the midst of physical death, but spiritual death, and in the midst of what's been going on in our country today. And we wanna pray for, for the families that are involved in all of this, the family of George Floyd and his relatives, we wanna pray for those that committed this horrific act. We wanna pray for repentance, we wanna pray for justice to be enacted. And then also we wanna pray for our involvement. And that's really where I wanna turn our conversation now and begin to interact with you. And I think one of the biggest questions that I have starting out right now as we launch into this, and all of you, I want you to jump in. It's this. What has been your personal response to what's occurred over the past couple of days? So whoever wants to go first, jump right in. - We had youth group on Wednesday night up at church, and talking with the youth that are in the neighborhood just so they could express, and that that was before some of the rioting, the main rioting happened, but for them to express their frustrations because they were putting stuff on Facebook, and they have other people speaking into their lives. We wanted to get together and just say, look, we don't have all the answers and we're not here to lecture you, but let's talk about this, you know, how do you feel about that? We got Pastor Terrell up on the phone, and so he could speak into these kids' lives and they listened to that. And so that was the church's job to say, look, we're here, you know? That's one of the things that with our, with our church on the corner that it's on, there's a library rec center right across the street, there's a lot of foot traffic and car traffic right there. We wanna be literally a light. We have a light that we leave on, you know, we wanna be a presence there on the, out in the community, especially during COVID, and right now, being there, not being foolish or anything like that, but saying that the church is here, this is the time the church needs to be standing up. Not to be telling everybody what to do, but like, we're here to be in it. And so to let those kids, to share their frustrations, their anger, to say what they needed to but let Pastor Terrell speak into their lives, and a lot of them, what they say, they said, "Oh, that really speaks to me." Yep, yep, that sounds a little bit different. Or you're putting in a better way than what I'm hearing on Facebook, what my so-and-so is saying. And so just to be able to have that conversation and say, we wanna hear from you, not tell you what to do, or how to feel, or how to think, but we wanna hear from you. And that helped. But at the same time we've got some of those kids that are running over to North, because they're a little bit, a little bit fascinated with it, a little bit frustrated. They've got other voices that you know, who are speaking into their lives. And that's a real danger that we have. I mean, we know exactly who we're talking about. There's one individual in particular, that Terrell had to send out a group message and say, if I see any more of you over here, I'm gonna pull you off the streets, 'cause this is just this, it's not right, not safe, and nothing productive here, but. So that was just something that kind of naturally happened. We were gonna have youth group as it was, but for them to come and to talk during COVID, during this, and have a voice, that was a start. - Yeah. And real quick though, Chris, I think it's important though for people to know, especially in light of the fact, and again for those of you that might be new to Rockpoint or you're listening, and you're not even part of our church family, we've partnered with East Immanuel. Chris is down in the inner city of St Paul and involved with feeding people, and helping provide food and hope, and as teams have gone down there and been involved with his ministry, as it has grown over the years though, you took on another role, and that is, you became a chaplain with the St Paul police department. And I think that, before we even get into some of these other issues, just share what's your reaction, 'cause some of these guys that are serving on the front lines are your friends, you've been in cars with them, you know what's going on. What was your reaction for their safety, and especially in light of the fact that they consider what happened evil. - Yeah, we had, I have a police Bible study, police officer Bible study on Thursdays, Thursday mornings. And so we met this past week, and a couple of guys were on Zoom, and so they were sharing that. And they have just as many frustrations as we do here, as men who are in different places of their faith, but they are brothers in the Lord, and they're wrestling with, okay, I'm putting on the uniform, but don't align me with what they did. You know, or I might have to go out in something that looks like riot gear, and yet what I'm standing, what I'm standing for, or what I'm standing against, what my personal view or choices in this situation, and they're having to wrestle with those. But, and that's what I said to them. I said, "Ultimately, you answer to God. "And that's what you need to do." And so, I'm not saying drop your stuff, and get on the other side. I'm saying, know what you believe, and then go and live it out. And so to talk, same thing with them so they could voice it, that there's no one there that there's gonna get them in trouble or anything recorded. So they could vent, and they could talk together, we could pray, we can look at scripture, and then, now, okay, I can be back out there. You know, Jesus talked to Roman soldiers, and never once in the scripture does he say, "Hey, stop being a Roman soldier, "Rome's evil. "That empire is bad. "You need to stop doing that." He showed, he admired them, and respected them for their faith. And so now they could actually go back and be faithful Roman soldiers. Now what does that mean? We could spend a lot of time on that, but, so what we do and then how we do it, those two things play big, big roles. - Yeah, that's great. Sammy, what's your reaction? - So my reaction, Brother Roy, is that it's twofold. It's collect, right? And then use my voice as a conduit. And so when I talk about collect, I actually went and sat with the Reverend Jesse Jackson at Greater Fellowship Missionary Baptist Church in Minneapolis. And everybody wants leadership around this right now. And so even myself, I wanted leadership, like I, my job is not to go out and shut the highway down. My job is not to respond with violence. My job is to go and seek out leaders who can give us instructions. And so you said something at the outset before we got on camera is that, it's assumed that sometimes we the professionals, or sometimes we should be on the front line. We know this stuff, and man, we need you guys just as much as you need us in this, right? It's the body of Christ. And so, it was white clergy, it was black clergy. We sat and we listened to Jesse. He said a few things, but we had other leaders such as Jerry McAfee, Bill Russell, right? They spoke, and man, they really gave some direction for the community. They really gave some hope. They told the brothers about how we can link arms. And so I did that. And so with going and sitting in that meeting now is going, I just preached the message that the Union Gospel Mission before I got here, out of Matthew 5 about being salt and light. And using my platform, and my voice to brothers who don't really feel like I feel right now, and I know towards the end of this, you'll get to the gospel making all the difference. If I didn't have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, I would've been one of those guys, looting those stores, out mad at the police tossing rocks, right? And so there is this conflict because the message that I'm bringing, a lot of people don't wanna hear right now, but deep down inside, Pastor Roy, I honestly believe that people are looking for leadership. I wanna do the right thing. I want justice, and I wanna go about that in a way, man, that is not destructive, but I'm looking for somebody to lead. And so I went and collected some intel, and now I'm deploying that. I'm being a conduit of it. - Okay. That's awesome. - Absolutely. - Terrell, what about you? What's been your reaction to all this? - My first reaction, I didn't even wanna watch it at first. I heard about it. But just so happen, the next morning after it happened, I kind of watched the news, 5:36 in the morning, my meditation time. And it just happened to come on, the visual aspect. What was my first thought? I was angry. I was very, very upset because that could've been me. It could've been my brother, my sister, or somebody that's close to me. And this is a situation that constantly, that's been happening, you know, with same results, you know? And this was very blatant. So I gotta give you how I feel first in order to give you how I, how I kind of went forward in it. You know, I was hurt, pain, it was a lot of pain. Discouraged, have to do something. What do we have to do? First of all, you know, I had to kind of sit still, you know, and collect myself because that, that anger, was a worldly anger, not a godly anger. And so it was a difference. You know, it was a difference. So at that point, I was back in that worldly anger, who I know I'm not. So I had to sit still. I had to allow my spirit to take control, and not my flesh. So that's just me just sitting still and saying, "Okay Lord, this is not you." Cause I recognized it. You see what I'm saying? When you have a relationship with something, you recognize, even if you get outside of it, it will bring you back. It depends on the relationship. So I spent a lot of time with Christ, so he kind of brought me back through the spirit and say, okay nope, okay, that's cool to be angry. Let that go now. I said, okay Lord, what am I called to do? And he said, "Just be still. "Be still." That don't mean don't do nothing. That means be still and say, and be directed. You know what I'm saying? Because right now I'm very emotional. I can't move any emotions and represent the King. So he just told me, just be still. And that's what I told everybody. Got a lot of calls that day. You know, Pastor, what we gonna do, what we gonna do? And I said, okay, let me find out what I'm gonna do. I got to find out what God want me to do first of all, 'cause I'm very proactive, 'cause see, one thing about me, I'm a small visionary, but I'm one that do. I'll go, I'll go quick, right? You call me, I'm gone. Don't even think about it, right? Just a man, right? But I go, right? But God said no, be still. You know, let's get, let's get something that'll be solidified in this situation. Meaning, let's not go and do something negative or on your own. Let's get some that makes a foundation, that builds a foundation. First of all, we gotta sit down and think. So it really, it really brought me, it allowed me to see something I didn't even know I had. A better relationship in hearing God. So it, it was a very, it was confusing to be honest, you know? But it was very, it was very clear what God wanted me to do. And let me tell you something, Roy, to be honest, right? It's, in my end result, what he gave me, is what you're doing right now. - [Sammy] Amen, amen. - I am so serious. What you're doing right now that we have to come together and find out what we need to do. And you know, God gave me two real quick. I can't come together with just anybody. I don't need to come together with somebody to say, okay, we gonna do it like this, and we gonna do it like this. We gonna do it like that. No, what God's telling us to do, we don't need nobody that wanna jump in the cameras. I just don't do that, you know? Let's get somebody who's gonna be the hands and feet of Jesus for real. They're gonna put their face on the floor. Let's come together collectively and prayer at the feet of Jesus. Is that cool to do on camera? Is that cool to do by yourself? I mean, what, you wanna have a camera come to your house and see you on the floor and say, look at me. No, no, let's do it in secrecy together. That's when we could cry together. And we can really, really see God together. That's what we got to do. - [Chris] Yeah, amen. - I think you're right. And it's the gospel which we'll talk about here that really cuts off this issue of pride and selfishness because it's death to me, it's death to who I am, it's death to the old person. What a great example of just sensing, wait a minute, that's the old me. That's been crucified, right? I mean, Romans 6 comes into this, right guys? We're all pastors. We know, and we could give four messages here, that could go on for four hours for our people. They're listening, but that old person was crucified. Sin shall not have dominion over you anymore. And that's why at one point in our conversation here, we're gonna get into this. Big time. Let me just quickly ask, why do you think, this is a cultural question, but why do you think the issues of race erupted at such a level that we are now seeing. Speaking to that, just to help people walk along here with us as we look at this, 'cause this thing has just erupted. Why do you think that's the case? - I'll jump on that really quick. Being at the mission of what I've heard expressed, and what I felt when I watched the video that I think contributed to just, this widespread violence, is that many times when you see things like this, you see the police shoot a guy, maybe he was escalating it to a certain degree, and we need to investigate, but I think the visual of seeing someone with their knee in a man's neck over a period of 10 minutes, and him begging, "I can't breathe." Him calling his mom. People on a sideline saying, "Hey man, look, why don't you ease up off of him, "check his pulse." I think that was a breaking point for a lot of people because it was almost like, man, there was no one to help him. It was nothing that he was doing. There was nothing that could have played out differently on that street corner, that would have saved that man life except for that man to take his knee out of his neck, or one of those other officers to say, "Hey man, he's had enough." And so what I've since then, St Paul, and even in Minneapolis, is that no one ran up to push the police down, or to stop that. And it's almost like they're saying now, "We wasn't there to get you off of George Floyd, "but we're here now, "and we're gonna speak loud and clear now, "because enough is enough." Do we condone that? I do not, man. My heart is broken for the city of Minneapolis, and St Paul, and across the nation. But I believe people reacted in that way because it was just too much man, to take in the visual. My wife has caught snippets of it, and every time it comes on TV, my wife's called Katie, she won't even watch it. My daughter either, right? Because it's just too heartbreaking for them. And so brother, where I would say people solve that, and I think it just, if you don't have the hope of glory, again, because I have a relationship with Jesus Christ, I'm not responding like everybody else, but like Terrell, I was angry, I was hurt, and I was fearful, right? And this set us back. This, I believe in a lot of ways the church wasn't making a lot of progress in this area, but this kind of set us back. And I know we're gonna talk about what we can do, but I think trust is gonna be a major, major issue moving forward, and not being plastic with one another, but truly doing life with one another. Having conversations like you've invited us here to have today. It's gonna take some soul searching for brothers and sisters to come together before we even put our boots on the ground again. Amen. - Trust is a factor that's critical. - Absolutely. - Absolutely. Terrell, anything on your-- - Yeah, it's a continual act. And that act was very, very blatant. Very blatant. You know, with his knee on his neck. And the thing he hollered, "Momma." And he called out for each of his kids, telling him he loved 'em, and then the words he said out of his mouth, "I'm gonna die." And so many, now we ain't talking about it at night time. We ain't talking about around no corner, We ain't talking about, ain't no, no kitty corners, anything else in the dark. This is, this is in the light. But this has been continuing to happen. But see, it's a lot of things the neighborhood of North Minneapolis, even myself and Sammy could attest to it too, that interaction with polices that ain't on camera, that we see, we've been victims of, to be honest, all police, no, not, not all police, but some of 'em. But you gotta understand this too, Roy, just because it was one police, one police represents the unit to somebody that don't know, just like if we, if us, us as a church, if somebody sees us outside cussing somebody out, that church ain't nothing. That's why I don't go. So we represents the whole, you know what I'm saying? And for somebody that don't have the mind frame of separation, or saying man, everybody ain't like him. You know? And that play a big part, and you've got to understand who we dealing with now. We dealing with a different culture. We're dealing with a young generation, white, black, we talking about this last, this past generation that's coming up now. They don't have a concept of, and let me just be honest. They don't have concept of respect. They don't have a concept of duty. They don't have a concept of honor, because they haven't been taught it. Period, right? So now, all it is, is you right, it's erupting like a volcano, well it's been bubbling. It's been bubbling. You know, something that's, that blatant, can't help. It won't make it spew out just a little bit like a volcano, spit a fire. No, it's gonna make it come like it's coming now, and that's what we see. That's what we see. - And that's well spoken, Terrell. - Let me ask the question that we've already raised so we can just talk about it. And then there's gonna be several pieces here, so we'll have a chance to deal with those. And that is, when we look at this issue collectively as pastors, we're involved in ministry for years. We come at it not from world solutions, but from a gospel-centered solution because the church has the message of hope through the Lord Jesus Christ. How does that change this? So how does the gospel and the church offer solutions that are at the heart of finding healing here? Let's talk about that. - Who wants to grab it? - No, you got it. - Relationship. - [Roy] Okay. - We could go out there and tell 'em we the church all day long, but if we ain't had a relationship with somebody, it's no different than your wife. Before she said, "I do" you had to do it. You had to show you that, you had to show her that she was important enough to you to say, "I do and I'll give my life to you." It ain't no different than a young guy. I was one of them young guys out there. I was one time a was young guy, and when I was out there doing the stuff I was doing in Chicago, just like them, you know? Not as blatant, but then again, it don't matter how blatant. Sin is a sin, right? So I just wanted somebody to love me. I just wanted somebody to pay attention to me. I just want somebody to lead me. I just wanted to know how to be a man. The main thing, I just wanted somebody to pay attention to me. Now, how the best way I get attention? By acting out. So if you don't spend time with me, I don't care if you the head of the Bible school, whoever you is, if you don't spend time with me, you being a Christian, are you trying to tell me about Jesus, don't mean nothing to me. But if you have a relationship with me, if you sit down with me, talk to me, let me know what you see in me, this must have been intended. And a lot of other brothers did. They let me know that I'm worth something, even when I felt like I wasn't nothing. And now that they got my attention and I got the, well, now that they got a little bit of my trust, 'cause it's hard for me to trust, now they got a little bit, I can listen to 'em. And you know what I could do? They could correct me. And I'll understand the difference between correction and making me feel a little, than correction and building me up. Because now I know you love me. Ain't nothing you can say to me, or nothing you can do in front of nobody that I'll say, "Man, you better watch your mouth." No, I'd be like, "Man, okay." - Yeah. And I think at the heart of that is they had a perspective, right? That you were someone created in the image of God, and you had infinite value, dignity, and worth, right? I mean, you have infinite value, dignity, and worth. And so did George Floyd. - [Terrell] That's right. - You know, we agree that life is precious. All of us right here, collectively together as we walk through this, life is precious from womb to the tomb. - [Chris] Amen. - It doesn't matter, stage of development, it doesn't matter location, together we value that, and it's time for us to speak into that issue in a major, major way collectively. And so I think, I mean that's how Jesus did with the gospel. I mean, right? He, I mean he looked at someone with that level of value, dignity, and worth, and that transformed it. So you've hit on something really important. But let's hear from you guys too on this. - I'll piggyback off of Terrell. I truly believe it is relationship, right? I believe your question is, how does the gospel really play into this? And I have to use myself as an example, right? Had I not 20 years ago, given my life to the Lord, my mind would not be the mind of Christ, right? I would be reacting. And so that's the thing that I see that is needed, right? Terrell is, his own point. When he says relationship, I need to get close enough. Bryan Stevenson, and when his talks talked about getting proximate. I need to get proximate enough, where I earn the right to share who Jesus is with you. It's the only thing that'll change you, right? You can't legislate morality. I was looking and preaching a little bit today, and talking about the story of Philemon and Onesimus. And Paul says, "Man, I have the right. "I could come at you basically and tell you "that this dude is released and he can go." He didn't even say that, you know, being in slavery was wrong. He says, "I'm appealing to you as a brother in love, right?" To receive this man back now that he's given his life to the Lord, right? As not only, you know what I'm saying, a servant of yours, but a dear brother in the faith, right? And so that comes from Christ. The reason I'm not reacting is the gospel. So if God has done this work in my life, the thing that I'm hitting the neighborhood within a block with, no matter how unpopular it is, it's the truth of the gospel because that's what changes hearts, right? When I saw that man do that, I told Pastor Chris this, my heart didn't wanna receive that as reality. It didn't wanna process it as being real. I was somewhat in denial, because if I allow anger, and bitterness, and resentment to seep in, like Terrell was talking about, that old man popping up, then my relationship with you is now tainted, because now the enemy not only has a foothold, but he has a stronghold. And so the Lord just like Terrell, be still, be still. I'm gonna point you in a direction that I want you to go. Like when Philando was killed, I was able to sit down with the girl who did that video on the next day, right? God opened those doors. And so it's like, Lord, I want you to direct me, right, to be a conduit. Being here is being a conduit and being used, right? There are other ways to be heard, and raise our voices other than doing what's being done now. And so, not to condone what they're doing. And not to say that, hey man, I don't understand it, but the church needs to link arms now. We need to link arms. And if it's the gospel, right, and Christ has truly changed your heart, there's no Jew, no Greek, no slave, no free, no male, no female. We are all one in Christ Jesus. Then this is the time to live like it, right? No more being plastic, no more being fake, phony. I tell you my name, you forget it two minutes later. We really ain't doing life. Man, I need to get in the trenches with you. I need my brothers, white brothers and sisters more than they need me at this point. Don't see me as the professional. Oh, you got boots on the ground, man, I need you, right? I need you to keep me grounded so that I don't let images like what happened to George Floyd taint me in a way that now my relationship with you is messed up, and my trust is messed up, and I don't wanna be in fellowship with you, and the devil again has a stronghold. So relationship, and knowing that it's the gospel. Open your mouth, share your faith, man, people need to hear the gospel. I spoke to 50 guys in the chapel today before I came here and man, only about three of them were asleep. 47 guys, man, locked into the message, because they know that what's happening is not right. They want justice, but man, they also wanna do it in a godly fashion. Something that honors, you know what I'm saying? Their family that brings honor to who they are as men, and so I shared that with them today. That's what the gospel does. That's the power of the gospel. - That's a great word. Because the church has that answer. I mean there is no human institution that can do what you guys have just said. None. I mean, it is, that's the totality of the good news of the gospel. It's not just for heaven, it's for life right now. And new resurrected life can happen. And that's the hope that we have, because Christ paid the price for our sin. He came back to life again to change us, to forgive us, and help us walk a different path. And that happens in the context of relationships. It's gotta be in community, or you gotta earn that right. That is just a great word. Chris, you've gotta speak into this too. - Mine would be, that our worth comes from Christ and Christ alone. That's where our absolute identity comes from. And so it doesn't matter if it's a white, black, male, female, I got a big bank account, I got a small bank account, I got a badge, I got a bunch of letters before and after my name. My worth doesn't come from any of those things. It comes from who I am in Christ. And the same thing is true of you. And so I have to look at you as someone who's fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of God. So if you look the same, you're made in the image of God. You look different than me. You're made in the image of God. And so I can't go up and spit in your face, or I can't be yelling at you because of what the world's doing. That's Romans 12, do not conform to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. I came from a different world, but when I got saved, I had to, I had to, I literally left the school that I was going to because I couldn't be in that environment anymore, and I had to deal with some things right then, and I was weak, and I was, and I was fragile, and those types of things. But that's what it was, is I started to grow and understand who I am in Christ. And then when I meet someone who, it doesn't matter what they look like. Now I'm not gonna pretend like, oh, he's not a different colored skin, or he doesn't come from a different place, or his voice is a little bit different, but I see them, I see him, I see him, her, I see whoever, as made in the image of God, just like I am. And so if he's made in the image of God, and I'm made in the image of God, I can't treat him like an animal. He's made in the image of God. I can't treat her like that. And so when the church does that, and that's one of the things for me, is the true church versus the fake church. There are churches that are just fake out there. And I'm not calling anybody out by name, or anything like that, but there are those who are trying to, we wanna look good, and we wanna sound right, we wanna get this size. We wanna be, and do this, opposed to, seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness. That's not easy. Jesus went to talk to the Roman soldier, talk to the woman caught in adultery, talk to the tax collector, you know, get after the Pharisees, Pharisees who loved to look professional, and wear their robes, and oh, hi church and all this stuff. Man, your whitewashed tools. Why? Because your hearts have not been changed, - Right. Yeah, yeah. And it's an inside out job. I mean, it's gotta happen from the inside out. And I think it raises an issue right there that you just kind of addressed, that we've all been kind of circling around, and that is the one that is tough to deal with. But we're gonna take just a few extra moments folks within our time because we could go on for four hours. I know those of you that are watching are really on the edge of your seat because this is such a critical cultural issue right now that we're just gonna take a few more moments. I appreciate your patience. But there's an issue that I wanna hear from all of you. And that is, it's one thing for me to say, I don't like racism. It's ugly. It's a scar. And I could go on, and on, and on, and on. But it's another thing for us together collectively as the body of Christ to say, as you just did, Chris, we're part of the kingdom of God. We are not part of the world anymore. We are a citizen of heaven. We're not as, you know, that means I live a life that is worthy, or befitting of the gospel. So all that stuff I leave outside, you know, and I say as a white church, a black church, a mixed church, a Asian church, whatever that looks like, we in community, in relationship, collectively use our influence to go after these issues. So speak into that because there's a community element here that we all have to own in order to find some solution, and that's part of the gospel. That's part of reconciliation. So talk to us a little bit about joining into that community because there's a risk there too. It's a tough zone to move into, but let's just get that up a little bit for people. You're laughing 'cause it's a huge subject. - I'll say this right, because it's a really, really good question, Brother Roy. - It is. - I think in the inner city, we have the same issues that you have here at a big church, right? When we talk about community, God has really given me, personally, a heart for the church, right? I've been wounded by churches, right? Around this very issue of racism when Trayvon Martin, and that whole thing happened with George Zimmerman, I actually left the church that had been at for eight years. I was an elder at that church because people fail to address the issue. I didn't wanna make a platform about racism in the church, nor did I feel as if, because I'm only one of maybe six black people in the church that you needed to address the issue. But I just thought as believers, as community, this was happening in our community. It was a nationwide event. I was hurt. I was wounded. So you, my brother in Christ, and although you don't have the same paint job I have, you should be hurting too, right? And yet you looking at me confused, wondering, man, what is going on? Would you shake that thing off? This thing will blow over. You praying for the nation, you ain't said nothing about this. And so I brought it up. And I was watching on social media, people in the church, in my community who were basically taking sides, and me as a black man, I felt like, well man, if anybody could be angry and talking out of context on Facebook, I could. But how are we as believers to respond? So when we talk about community, again, I go back to that statement that I made about being plastic. And we gotta be authentic and real with one another. Pastor Chris know when I came to East Immanuel, one of the things that I told 'em, and I always be upfront and honest with you, you ain't got to worry about me having roast pasta after the church, right? When there's an issue, I'm gonna approach you with it. I'm gonna be upfront with it. I'm gonna be authentic. They have a saying in the hood, I'm gonna be 100 with you. And that's what I think community is, right? I think some people have mistaken community for, I go to this church, I meet at this time, we drink coffee together, and we talk about the weather, and maybe what we're gonna do this week, and that's not community. That's not calling it it, that's not fellowship. I'm talking about really getting in the trenches with one another, right? And I think that's missing. And I think before we hit the block, or before we boots on the ground, we need to in-house, start to deal with what that really looks like. And only Christ can do that work in our heart, right? I see Pastor Chris as my brother, I see you as my brother, Terrell as my brother. We are in community. If something happened, I know that I could call on Pastor Chris. You would show up. Terrell and I have went up north with John Rock that was at this church. He invited us all out to his place and for a weekend. Man fed us, took us to the farm and like, man, we did life together, right? They prayed over Terrell before he left the farm and I stayed in that house in the basement. He had another little, like this was for real. That's community. Community is not showing up on a Sunday morning and learning to say my name, and how you doing, and hitting the door. And so I need to know that you're not plastic, because as a black man, and I'll say this and I'll finish, I've learned to read you in the first five or six minutes, right? If you're interested and you really wanna do life, it's coming across, but if it's just, hey man, I'm just going through the motions on a Sunday morning with my cup of coffee in hand, you're not gonna get authentic Sam. You won't get the Sammy that you're getting right here. I'm gonna give you the same thing that you give me, and we playing the game. So when you talk about community, I'm talking about going deeper. I'm talking about really doing life for one another man, not playing, not playing church, not playing church. - That's good. I'm gonna piggyback off of that too, right? That's real good, what you said, right? Which, you know, I'm even gonna go deeper than that, right? It's about a community. What do you think about community, right? Community is something that's intentional and continual, right? If I'm in a community, I'm getting to know you, you're getting to know me, and if I'm living next door to you, I'm gonna watch your house, you're gonna watch my house. I'm gonna watch your kids, you're gonna watch my kids. When we was up to John Rock's, our kids was with us. White and black little kids playing together like they don't even know what color each other is, right? They don't know anything about the nonsense, right? But they just know, hey man, you man, his son loved me. Oh yeah, let me, let me stay here. Yeah. Well that's my man. He my heart, right? - We pray for him every night, my son and I, he's on our list. Terrell is on that list. - Every night. And that was, this is gonna be real quick, right? I was out in St Paul just dancing, and watching Pastor Chris's wife, Tracy, get in the car, 'cause I always like to go make sure they take off. This is my family. I'm gonna make sure my eyes see them get in the van and take off 'cause I realized where we at, right? So I was out there, I was, I just got to dance. Don't know how to dance, right? But I was dancing, right? And then all of a sudden my little buddy come out. That's just, I got to call my buddy come out, and hug me, and hold me, and say, "I love you Pastor Terrell." With tears in his eyes. That's community. But now let's go to us a dose, right? You're absolutely right. It's one thing I learned from the streets of Chicago, being a gang leader and all that other nonsense, right? Body language is everything. Body language saved my life. So if I'm watching you and you're nervous, something going on, you know? So body language is the same thing Sammy's talking about. The interaction. If you say, okay, hey, how you doing? What's your name again? Well, we've been introduced 20 times, right? But you know, that plays a big part of it. If we're gonna be in community, and this one I wanna state, right? You got to understand when we go out to that jungle, talking about places that don't look like comfort to us, North Minneapolis, East St Paul, those places, with no one, nobody look out don't know Jesus. And we smell the weed, and him cussing, and all that pants sagging, has tilt, right? You got to understand them, but how could you understand me if you've never been there? See, it's one thing may have Pastor Sammy did before was the streets of East St Paul. We got out there every Tuesday. We got out there, right? And they saw a white and a black man together. They didn't, they didn't know we was pastors, right? But we stopped people on the street drinking beer, you know, hey, what's going on, man? You know, we got a food ministry. We interacting. We ain't looking at the beer, or the stuff they doing. We're looking at so much greater than the thing that they don't even know, they don't even know about, right? They don't know. this stuff's gonna kill 'em, but I ain't gonna focus on that. It'll come up later on when I get to know you, right? It'll come up later on. And the way I walk. It'll come up later on as I interact with you consistently, intentionally, right? That you see that, man, this dude here, man. He said no cuss word or did any of that. You know, he ain't looking at me how I am, and now I could say, man, boy, you know you're looking good man. Man, just think about it, man if you stopped smoking that weed. So that's how we gotta come to churches, not white churches. Everybody, white or black churches. You know what somebody told me the church is the biggest segregation there is, meaning, white churches, white pastors go to white churches. Not all of them, but the majority of them. Come on now, let's look at that congregation. You know, I love y'all, right? It's just the truth, right? And it's a hard conversation. Black churches, we, look at the Baptist churches. To be honest, you know y'all make too much noise. Y'all be too quiet. Y'all jump up, and holler, and all this stuff, talking about the Holy Spirit, and you're moving so much, man. I'm trying to listen. Man, y'all just sitting there like y'all go to sleep. Who am I to tell somebody how they worship God? - [Sammy] Come on. - If I don't worry about that and know for a fact, you know what, Roy? If I know you love me, it ain't nothing you could do to make me act any different from you. - [Sammy] Come on. - I tell each one of them, right? I say, man, if I don't talk to y'all for five years, my heart ain't gonna change towards y'all 'cause I know you love me. See, and that's just what community, being intentional, being consistent, getting to know each other. So when we hit them streets, our feet hits the streets in North Minneapolis or whatever, you'll know exactly what's going on. You won't be lost. In the past, we do it on Wednesday and we did it out in North Minneapolis on Thursdays. The food ministry, I was a director of food ministry out there as well. But they, when black kids, I don't wanna use that. When different kids look at Pastor Chris and me, kicking and hugging, you know fighting, and you know, doing like that, you know and they say, "Man, what was that?" No dang man, Pastor Chris on the street. Who was it? I said, "That's my brother." "Man, that ain't your brother." I say, "Man, it's my brother." Why don't you tell? I gotta give what they get. I talk slang with him, right? I mean it's just me. You know what I'm saying? Somebody's got to be there to attract those that do those things, right? To let them know, man, he all right. Come on now. Man, he all right, man. This is my brother, man. Look, look. So when they see him by himself now, they're like Pastor Chris. And that's what, that's what Wednesday's about. - [Sammy] Come on, come on. - So we have to be at the church. - [Roy] That's right. - The church, we have to be, we have to be real with each other. Authentic. You know, and you don't understand where me and Sammy come from, and we don't understand where you come from, 'cause I know God created each one of us to reach different people, right? So, and that's okay, but what about you? I watch you, and I learn how to reach the people you reach. And they, and I show them, that man, man, this is my brother. And you show them also, man this, I mean I love this little guy, this little chubby guy, right? I love this guy, this is my brother, right? And when they see that, they'll start wanting to understand it and comprehend, okay man, what's going on here? And you know what they do? Put the mirror in their face. Why do I don't like this? - One of the biggest blessings to us real quick, real quick, has been a Korean church came to us. So a church of believers from Burma, they came to us. We weren't looking to reach out to them, we weren't available, we didn't have any of these things. They were looking for a place to worship. And we said, yeah, we wanna be open to the things of God. We wanna help out brothers and sisters that are different than us. Come on in. And they're a couple of hundred strong, and we love them. And I have learned so much from them, and their faith, and their stories, are from a world that I can't even begin to comprehend. But we get the blessing to give them a safe place to worship. And then we get to hear their stories. And that's how the family of God. So it doesn't have to be just necessarily white, black, urban, suburban thing, which it needs to, I mean that needs to be part of it, but it's not limited to that. I mean, God has brought all the nations here, you know, a generation, two generations ago, if you wanted to go and minister cross-culture, you get on a boat and you try to go somewhere. God has brought all those nations right here. If the church is serious about it, let's just be open to do what God wants to do. - Yeah. Well, again, I knew we would probably take more time than what we normally do on these online services, but that's okay today, and I know people were really patient with us because as a matter of fact, I think we probably could have gone on even longer. But let me just wrap it up with a few closing words for people. This is just the beginning of the conversation. This is just the beginning of looking at this issue, because what we talked about today is gonna take some time. But we are called, and it's 2 Corinthians chapter five, we are called to be ambassadors for Christ, right? Because God is making his appeal through us. Paul says that in verse 20, 2 Corinthians chapter five, and the reason is because, for our sake, he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. We are the righteousness of God, declared righteous and therefore now we start living the righteous life in community, in these settings that are dark, and evil, and dealing with subjects that have plagued us for years like this subject of racism, and hatred, and injustice. And just so the people of Rockpoint know, and those that are listening, I was on a phone call yesterday with the mayor of St Paul, and a bunch of other pastors, as we're trying to develop relationships, hear from him. But as soon as we, at Rockpoint, hear information from him about mobilizing in community with each other to go down to the places that have been impacted by the rioting and the devastation, we're gonna let you know as Rockpoint people, because we gotta do something together. And it's gonna be developing the relationships. But we will let you know as soon as I know information from St Paul or Minneapolis, how we can be involved together, going back into these communities, and beginning this conversation. And I also wanna say this, that whenever we see an act of injustice, this whole issue causes us to look at, what would I do? what would I do? And I wanna encourage you as you're listening to this conversation, if you hear of an injustice, if you watch an injustice, if you hear of somebody treated at school in a way that you know in your spirit is wrong, are you willing to act? And will you act even if there's a cost? I think we have to grapple with that. And I think that's at the core of a lot of what we're dealing with. And if we're willing to say yes to this, then let's go on that journey together. And I wanna thank all of you for being here. Thanks for allowing me to share. Thanks for letting you share. We're gonna do this again. Let's do this again, okay? And I think our people would welcome it, and it's a chance for us to speak truth into an issue where Jesus Christ, the gospel, changes lives in the context of relationships in community, so that we can show that the church is different because we're part of the kingdom now. And so thank you. God bless you all, and thanks for being with us. Let me pray for us as we close our time. Father, thank you for the power of the gospel. We thank you for the truth that Jesus Christ died for our sin, rose from the grave, and by confessing our sin, admitting we are a sinner, and turning to you as savior in Lord, we can be transformed and changed, and begin to live the kind of life we talked about, in community with one another, and that it is the gospel and the hope, the hope of Jesus Christ that brings healing, not only within our churches, but within our community, our nation, and our world. Lord, we wanna be a part of that together from our respective churches, from our settings, and so we collectively joined together. We asked that you would now show us the way so that we can really begin to see a revival happen in our hearts, in our lives, in our churches, and in our nation, and in our world. And it's in Christ name we pray. Amen. - Amen.